Steel Brake Line for DOHC

[doodsaibot]

Yes I agree. I was reading through the manual just now and it mentioned that I may need to let it stabilize for a few hours. Tomorrow morning I will give it another shot. I read of people using a syringe on the exit tube (connected to the bleed screw) to help draw some fluid through. At any rate, I will give the procedure another shot tomorrow when I have some daylight to work with. I scrubbed the chamber a bit before I did the reassembly but it may still have some type of clog.

 

[Wolfe_11B]

That's just what happens when the master is empty. The reason nothing is coming out of the bleed screw is because you aren't pushing any fluid with air in the master.

Close the bleed, fill the reservoir, leave lid off, put rubber band around brake lever, and walk away for a few hours. Should be able to bleed it by then.

 

[rshutchinson]

Start at the master cylinder banjo. Pump the lever a few times, squeeze it 1/3-1/2, crack the banjo on the MC a little and then tighten it back up before letting go of the lever. Do that a few times. You may have some air trapped there still. Then re-do at the caliper.

 

[16VGTIDave]

Never leave the lid off a master cylinder. Brake fluid is hygroscopic. It absorbs moisture, even from the air. That's not good as it will lead to corrosion over time if the fluid isn't changed. Also, it is too easy to spill brake fluid onto the bike where it can attack paint.

The elastic band trick is just a trick. If you've tried it and thought it worked, that's great. The reality is that you left the bike alone for a couple hours, and the air bubbles slowly conglomerated and migrated upwards to the master cylinder. Or to a high point in the line. Regardless, the important thing was leaving the brakes alone for a number of hours.

 

[doodsaibot]

PROGRESS UPDATE: I think letting the bike sit overnight helped quite a bit. I went with the syringe idea to add some extra pull at the end of the tube. Although the principle is good, I wanted something with a bit more draw. Turns out one of my riding buds has I bleeder kit so I borrowed it. With the bleeder kit, I was able to get the residual nasty brake fluid out and started pulling through the fresh fluid. Moment of truth, I rode the bike around the lot and it did great. Haven't done any high speed stuff yet.


I know most of you guys have plenty of experience with mechanical work but there is still a voice in the back of my head doubting my work. I hate to be such a worry wart but I have half a mind to let a mechanic look at it before I take her out on another adventure. Maybe I am just being paranoid.

 

[16VGTIDave]

When it comes to brake work, one should be paranoid. Accelerating is optional, stopping is mandatory. Also, it's not just your life, but also everyone else around you who is at risk. I suggest to novice mechanics that once the work is complete they should pretend that there is a big nasty person with a large caliber revolver standing beside them. If ANY fault is found with work done... Well, the big nasty person has their instructions.

Now, how confident are you about your work? Are you sure you don't want to double check everything? Any parts left over? Everything tightened to spec, but not over-tight? Have you tested for correct operation? Any leaks? Have you wiped away all you greasy hand prints? That, by the way, is a great way to find the screw or bolt you forgot to tighten. All the tools accounted for, cleaned, and put away?

Go through all that, and you will know if you need someone else to look at the work done, or not.

 

[doodsaibot]

When it comes to brake work, one should be paranoid. Accelerating is optional, stopping is mandatory. Also, it's not just your life, but also everyone else around you who is at risk. I suggest to novice mechanics that once the work is complete they should pretend that there is a big nasty person with a large caliber revolver standing beside them. If ANY fault is found with work done... Well, the big nasty person has their instructions.

Now, how confident are you about your work? Are you sure you don't want to double check everything? Any parts left over? Everything tightened to spec, but not over-tight? Have you tested for correct operation? Any leaks? Have you wiped away all you greasy hand prints? That, by the way, is a great way to find the screw or bolt you forgot to tighten. All the tools accounted for, cleaned, and put away?

Go through all that, and you will know if you need someone else to look at the work done, or not.

That's the real kicker, Dave. I have everything in order as it should be. Triple double checked it all. Still felt uneasy about it. I suppose with it being my first time with this type of work and all.

So, I decided first to simply push the bike forward and backward (while it was off) and test the brake. Then I turned the bike on and rode around an empty lot at various low speeds, testing regular and hard braking. Then I rode it out onto the streets, testing the brakes. I got it up to 60 MPH at one point and the brakes still worked good, all the while testing the brakes up to that top speed of 60MPH. Rode for a total of 45 minutes. Took baby steps with it, basically. From what I could tell, it functioned the way it should, the braking actually feels a bit different than before, in a good way I think. I'll keep a close eye on it, though.

 

[16VGTIDave]

We've all had our first time. The fact that you are questioning your ability, and are concerned about it, suggests that you will be just fine. There is nothing complicated about the brakes on our bikes, and it sounds like you've covered all the important points. You didn't have to use a hammer, did you?

The ones to be truly concerned about are the ones who think they are beyond fault, or the ones who say "F**k it! Thats good enough!". Maybe it is arrogance. Maybe their mommy told them they were great one too many times. Maybe they simply are too stupid to recognize a mistake when they make it. Regardless, they are the dangerous ones.

Now that you've got your test ride done and it's all good, what about the pads? Because one is never truly done tinkering with a vintage bike.

 

[doodsaibot]

We've all had our first time. The fact that you are questioning your ability, and are concerned about it, suggests that you will be just fine. There is nothing complicated about the brakes on our bikes, and it sounds like you've covered all the important points. You didn't have to use a hammer, did you?

The ones to be truly concerned about are the ones who think they are beyond fault, or the ones who say "F**k it! Thats good enough!". Maybe it is arrogance. Maybe their mommy told them they were great one too many times. Maybe they simply are too stupid to recognize a mistake when they make it. Regardless, they are the dangerous ones.

Now that you've got your test ride done and it's all good, what about the pads? Because one is never truly done tinkering with a vintage bike.

Disclaimer: No hammers were used in the repair of these brakes. It's good to know my cautious nature is normal for this sort of job.


I am glad you asked about the pads. I have researched into the sintered pads, amongst many other styles including the kevlar composites and whatnot. I understand the sintered offer a better "bite" than our standard OEM pads. I was going to ask your experience with them. Although, I don't mind sticking with the stock style. Either way, I am going to make a choice here this week.

And yes, after one project is complete, it seems like I dig myself deeper into the rabbit hole of tinkering that is my 83 Maxim.

 

[XSLeo]

Yes, It often seems like the rabbit hole is endless when working on old bikes. Just keep at it. One day you will realize that you won't have to fix anything more. Then it's just thing you want to do, not have to do. So we enjoy the good running reliable bike it should be.
A lot of us at this point get another old bike. We learn to love the tinkering as much as the riding. Well, as long as we have at least one to ride while tinkering the next.
I'm up to 4 bikes now with a couple pars bikes.
Leo

 

[16VGTIDave]

I ain't never said nuttin' 'bout normal... [emoji6]

The only pads I've tried so far are EBC's. The first set wore quickly as I didn't bed them in hard enough. The second set have lasted longer and worked better because I got them good and hot during the break in period. These pads are predictable, quiet, and gentle on the rotor, but are not as aggressive as I'd like. When out cruising back roads and the car in front of you decides to do a panic stop to not run over a squirrel, you'd best grab the brake lever with all fingers and squeeze hard. When these pads and the rotor are cold, there is virtually no bite. Yes, they will stop the bike smoothly, but without the urgency one sometimes requires.

I haven't done any research yet as to alternative brands, but I expect to have few options available.

 

[Wolfe_11B]

Never leave the lid off a master cylinder. Brake fluid is hygroscopic. It absorbs moisture, even from the air. That's not good as it will lead to corrosion over time if the fluid isn't changed. Also, it is too easy to spill brake fluid onto the bike where it can attack paint.

The elastic band trick is just a trick. If you've tried it and thought it worked, that's great. The reality is that you left the bike alone for a couple hours, and the air bubbles slowly conglomerated and migrated upwards to the master cylinder. Or to a high point in the line. Regardless, the important thing was leaving the brakes alone for a number of hours.

People still use glycol brake fluid? Silicone is much better, doesn't absorb water and works better in changing climates. If you don't have ABS, use dot 5. (Not to be confused with DOT 5.1). Just make sure you don't mix it. Also, a few hours exposed to air won't add any measurable amount of water. The fluid absorbs it even with the cover on and system all sealed up anyway. There are some good scientific white papers from the military on why we only use DOT 5.

You use the elastic band for a good reason. If its being gravity bled, and you aren't around to watch it, the fluid could get low enough to let air into the master again. If it was squeezed, you could add more fluid to the reservoir, release the lever, and it prevents a little bit of work on your final bleeding. Just a bit of security.

Glad you got it worked out though.

 

[16VGTIDave]

Okay, I'll take your bait. Yes, most vehicles on the road today still use DOT 3 or 4 brake fluid for good reason. DOT 5 Silicone fluid is actually a terrible brake fluid. It can't absorb moisture. So when it gets into the system, which it will, it will puddle and cause significant opportunity for corrosion. Never mind the ability of water to boil and create steam, rendering the higher boiling point of the fluid irrelevant. And silicone fluid easily entraps air that won't separate out, so it often results in a spongy feeling lever/pedal. This can even happen in the master cylinder when the vehicle is in operation. Nothing better than getting spongy brakes simply from using them. And since DOT 5 fluid doesn't mix with any other brake fluid, one would have to purge the entire braking system throughly when switching to DOT 5 fluid. It is typically suggested to completely disassemble and rebuild the entire system, replacing all rubber components, before switching. Because that is cost effective.

For what ever it might be worth, referencing mil spec, or worse yet white papers, isn't going to impress. Usually, it is quite the opposite, especially if none are actually referenced. If you want to provide links to those white papers, I will take the time to read them. I'm going to guess they are along the same lines as the papers I read on US mil-spec engine oil, hammers, and toilet seats. But I'll try to keep an open mind.

You lost me with that bit about gravity bleeding. Were you suggesting leaving some part of the braking system open while un-attended? With a rubber band on the lever to prevent fluid flow? What would this accomplish as compared to closing the system up and leaving it over night? Other than the potential for a mess on the floor?

 

[16VGTIDave]

A quick follow up regarding brake pads. There is a Japanese manufacturer, Vesrah, who offers both an Organic and a Sintered metal pad for the DOHC bikes. VD-235 is the part number for their organic pads. Add "JL" to the end of the part number for Sintered metal pads. These pads are available on eBay and probably other sources. It will be a couple months before I need pads on my bike, but I will probably give them a try when the time comes.

 

[doodsaibot]

Thanks for that info, Dave. The Vesrah pads are a bit more affordable than the EBC brand I was looking at, not that the EBC are way too expensive but a good deal is a good deal.

On that same token, going to the sintered metal may have one downfall. From what I have researched, although the sintered metal pads have a decent "bite" for superior braking ability, they may eat up cast iron rotors like there is no tomorrow. Whether or not these complaints were valid, I don't know. They may have exaggerated their reports of the wear and tear on the rotor or they were simply legitimate findings. Not sure yet since I have never owned those types of pads. New rotors can be expensive. I am still on the fence as to which route I will take.

 

[16VGTIDave]

I tried "full metallic" pads on a car many (20+) years ago. They were factory option pads. As far as I'm concerned, they should not have been sold as street use pads. The first stop on a cool morning didn't happen. Stand on the brake pedal and get almost no stopping action, just a grinding noise. Once they warmed up, they were ok, but squealed terribly. Once they got hot, they were fantastic! And yes, they chewed up the cast iron rotors until they got hot. And the metal dust all over the alloy wheels...

All that said, I believe that there is a difference between old school automotive "full metallic" and modern motorcycle "sintered" pad materials. Add to that the rotor on our bike is stainless steel and I have less answers and more questions. I don't want to use pads that are going to destroy the rotor...

 

[doodsaibot]

In that case, I may go with the Vesrah Organics this time around. I will order them at the same time I get the new O-rings for my brake caliper. Hit two birds with one stone.

From what you described, it seems like those metallic pads would be more suitable for racing. They can stop on a dime when they get warm enough. For the sake of everyday practicality though....

The EBC website gave some info regarding their pads. They said the same thing you mentioned, they can naturally be real noisy, need to be warmed up for best performance and you need a specific rotor. I think I will go stock organic. For now.

 

[16VGTIDave]

Vesrah makes some claims about how good their sintered pads are: http://catalog.vesrah.co.jp/catalog/info/ti_brake_sintered.html

Apparently DP Brakes also makes their "Standard" pads, part #DP403, that are sintered HH+ rated. That is the best one can get for street use. Galfer has Kevlar pads available, but they sound similar to EBC pads.

 

[doodsaibot]

Hate to bring up an older thread but what I have to post is relevant to the subject of brake lines/brake pads for the DOHC.

I purchased the Vesrah sintered metal brake pads (the ones that Dave linked in the above post.) I installed them today and it is yet another one of those upgrades I wish I had done sooner. Thanks for the link, Dave. If anyone is thinking about buying these Vesrah pads you will love them over the stock pads.

 

[16VGTIDave]

Thanks for the update! I'm interested in a long term report as well, if you would be so kind. I hope the pads exceed your expectations!

My current EBC pads are almost due for replacement and I'm still undecided as to which pads to go with. A friend is strongly advocating Galfer's semi-metallic pads as the "best compromise" between rotor wear and stopping power. But, they sound like they won't perform any different from the EBC pads, just less expensive. Not that there is anything wrong with the EBC pads. I just want more stopping power, and hopefully longer life. The Vesrah sintered pads should offer both.